Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Camp Updates, Quick Hits

One potential positive to Giroux missing some time, is that it moves Akeson off of the fourth line to play with better offensive players. I think it's real important that they get a good hard long look at Akeson in the right situations.

I miss Eric Wellwood. Wonder what happened to him. That's right another career ending injury. Flyers hockey is depressing .

One potential positive to Giroux missing some time, is that it moves Akeson off of the fourth line to play with better offensive players. I think it's real important that they get a good hard long look at Akeson in the right situations.
- MJL

I know it has been mentioned here but I would have liked to see Vinny as #1 C in the pre-season. I wonder if that is not the case because Berube wants to make sure and evaluate if he is comfortable playing with RJ to start the season. Obviously, as he stated, he also wants to continue to have Schenn get time at both C and LW. Not a big deal but I would like to see Vinny get time with VCheck to see how that works out.

I know it has been mentioned here but I would have liked to see Vinny as #1 C in the pre-season. I wonder if that is not the case because Berube wants to make sure and evaluate if he is comfortable playing with RJ to start the season. Obviously, as he stated, he also wants to continue to have Schenn get time at both C and LW. Not a big deal but I would like to see Vinny get time with VCheck to see how that works out.
- coffee junkie

Moving Schenn to center and keeping him with Jake makes sense. Let them continue to develop chemistry together. VLC and Schenn both like to gravitate to the same spots in the offensive zone so moving VLC to the top line makes little sense unless you take Schenn off that line

Moving Schenn to center and keeping him with Jake makes sense. Let them continue to develop chemistry together. VLC and Schenn both like to gravitate to the same spots in the offensive zone so moving VLC to the top line makes little sense unless you take Schenn off that line
- BiggE

Yep. If you move up Vinny, Schenn has to drop to third line. I agree with Berube's move.

His other choices-pairing Vinny & Umberger or using Akeson in a 4th line spot in the first place seem odd to me. As he said in Bill's blog, Akeson is a good playmaker and Vinny is a finisher, so why not go with that from the get go? Also Raffl is a good, young two way player with speed, putting him with Vinny and Akeson could give you a solid line that doesn't have to be sheltered.

That frees up Umberger to be an anchor of a solid 4th line and gives them a unit that can play a regular shift and doesn't have to be hidden or have Giroux or Couturier pop in for defensive zone draws (and more demanding shifts).

Much like the argument that using Lecavalier as a 4th liner would be a waste, why not use guys in roles that best suit their abilities from the get go?

Yep. If you move up Vinny, Schenn has to drop to third line. I agree with Berube's move.

His other choices-pairing Vinny & Umberger or using Akeson in a 4th line spot in the first place seem odd to me. As he said in Bill's blog, Akeson is a good playmaker and Vinny is a finisher, so why not go with that from the get go? Also Raffl is a good, young two way player with speed, putting him with Vinny and Akeson could give you a solid line that doesn't have to be sheltered.

That frees up Umberger to be an anchor of a solid 4th line and gives them a unit that can play a regular shift and doesn't have to be hidden or have Giroux or Couturier pop in for defensive zone draws (and more demanding shifts).

Much like the argument that using Lecavalier as a 4th liner would be a waste, why not use guys in roles that best suit their abilities from the get go?
- Jsaquella

Agreed
Barring trades, I think you may see something like the following by Spring:
Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Simmonds
Bellemare-VLC-Akeson
Umberger-Laughton-Raffl
Spares: Rinaldo & White

Yep. If you move up Vinny, Schenn has to drop to third line. I agree with Berube's move.

His other choices-pairing Vinny & Umberger or using Akeson in a 4th line spot in the first place seem odd to me. As he said in Bill's blog, Akeson is a good playmaker and Vinny is a finisher, so why not go with that from the get go? Also Raffl is a good, young two way player with speed, putting him with Vinny and Akeson could give you a solid line that doesn't have to be sheltered.

That frees up Umberger to be an anchor of a solid 4th line and gives them a unit that can play a regular shift and doesn't have to be hidden or have Giroux or Couturier pop in for defensive zone draws (and more demanding shifts).

Much like the argument that using Lecavalier as a 4th liner would be a waste, why not use guys in roles that best suit their abilities from the get go?
- Jsaquella

Because putting Umberger on the 4th line doesn't make a lot of sense. He's a much better player then that, that should be given more icetime then he would get on the 4th line. Umberger is a solid all around player that is capable of providing secondary offense. Not a 4th line checking player.
If Lecavalier is healthy, then how is using him as a 4th liner best suit his abilities? Unless either player is playing very poorly, or hurt, there is no way I'd want either player on the 4th line. Because it is a waste.

Because putting Umberger on the 4th line doesn't make a lot of sense. He's a much better player then that, that should be given more icetime then he would get on the 4th line. Umberger is a solid all around player that is capable of providing secondary offense. Not a 4th line checking player.
If Lecavalier is healthy, then how is using him as a 4th liner best suit his abilities? Unless either player is playing very poorly, or hurt, there is no way I'd want either player on the 4th line. Because it is a waste.
- MJL

Umberger on a 4th line isn't a waste if you are committed to having a 4th line that can play in all situations and you are going to roll 4 lines.

Agreed
Barring trades, I think you may see something like the following by Spring:
Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Simmonds
Bellemare-VLC-Akeson
Umberger-Laughton-Raffl
Spares: Rinaldo & White
- BiggE

That's what I'm thinking, although I'd flip Bellemare & Raffl. That's 4 lines you can roll and the 3rd and 4th lines will both likely end up playing similar minutes, so basically it's a 1st line with the Giroux line, a 2nd line with Couts, Read and Simmer and two third lines, neither of which has to be shielded to the extent that two of the four lines last year had to be.

With this set up, the Lecavalier and Laughton lines could each see 10-14 minutes a night and provide guys who can step in on the PK and even see spot PP duty.

Umberger on a 4th line isn't a waste if you are committed to having a 4th line that can play in all situations and you are going to roll 4 lines.
- BiggE

Bingo.

If your 4th line is Umberger, White and Rinaldo, yeah, it's a waste.

If your 4th line is Umberger, Laughton and Bellemare, it can play as many minutes as a line of Vinny, Raffl & Akeson.

If you avoid plugs like Rinaldo, you really don't have to focus on things like "fourth" line, because you don't really have to have a 4th line that has to be protected and is there just to provide "energy"

Umberger on a 4th line isn't a waste if you are committed to having a 4th line that can play in all situations and you are going to roll 4 lines.
- BiggE

Sure it is, because he is one of the better all around players on the team if he is healthy. And he plays the game the right way. He's never been a 4th line player in his career, what makes you think he is now? Unless the Flyers drastically change and the 4th line plays a whole lot more, then it's an absolute waste. He's a better player then that. And please don't tell me the Flyers traded Scott Hartnell for a 4th line player that is going to play 8 minutes a night at ES.

Bingo.

If your 4th line is Umberger, White and Rinaldo, yeah, it's a waste.

If your 4th line is Umberger, Laughton and Bellemare, it can play as many minutes as a line of Vinny, Raffl & Akeson.

If you avoid plugs like Rinaldo, you really don't have to focus on things like "fourth" line, because you don't really have to have a 4th line that has to be protected and is there just to provide "energy"
- Jsaquella

Misses the point. It's not that the line wouldn't be a good 4th line. It's that you are under utilizing Umberger as a player. He has more to offer a team then that.

Misses the point. It's not that the line wouldn't be a good 4th line. It's that you are under utilizing Umberger as a player. He has more to offer a team then that.
- MJL

So it was a mistake that the Stanley Cup champions used Mike Richards, certainly as good a player as Umberger, on the 4th line in the playoffs?

I want a 4th line that is as good as a 3rd. That's how you win championships. In regards specifically to Umberger:
I can see him getting 9 minutes or so at ES on the 4th line, getting a bit of time on the top line late in games when protecting a lead, getting 3 minutes or so on the 2nd pp unit and 1-2 minutes on the PK.
That would give him anywhere from 13-15 minutes in total ice time and I'm fine with that.

That's what I'm thinking, although I'd flip Bellemare & Raffl. That's 4 lines you can roll and the 3rd and 4th lines will both likely end up playing similar minutes, so basically it's a 1st line with the Giroux line, a 2nd line with Couts, Read and Simmer and two third lines, neither of which has to be shielded to the extent that two of the four lines last year had to be.

With this set up, the Lecavalier and Laughton lines could each see 10-14 minutes a night and provide guys who can step in on the PK and even see spot PP duty.
- Jsaquella

That's exactly what I'm hoping for. I'm fine with Rinaldo starting the season in the lineup, but I'm really hoping that he is in the pressbox by the time they start the stretch drive. He's not a guy I want in the lineup during the playoffs.

That's exactly what I'm hoping for. I'm fine with Rinaldo starting the season in the lineup, but I'm really hoping that he is in the pressbox by the time they start the stretch drive. He's not a guy I want in the lineup during the playoffs.
- BiggE

I don't want him in the line-up, period.

Give me 4 lines like the ones above and there's no need at all to under utilize anybody. If I have Umberger-Laughton-Bellemare as my 4th line, they're going to see as much time as a Vinny-Raffl-Akeson line, if not more. They're not really a 4th line, it's basically having two very solid third lines, instead of a good third line and a 4th line that can only play 7 minutes.

Im not a Porsche guy.....give me the Ferrari

So it was a mistake that the Stanley Cup champions used Mike Richards, certainly as good a player as Umberger, on the 4th line in the playoffs?

I want a 4th line that is as good as a 3rd. That's how you win championships. In regards specifically to Umberger:
I can see him getting 9 minutes or so at ES on the 4th line, getting a bit of time on the top line late in games when protecting a lead, getting 3 minutes or so on the 2nd pp unit and 1-2 minutes on the PK.
That would give him anywhere from 13-15 minutes in total ice time and I'm fine with that.
- BiggE

Mike Richards average 15:32 a game in ice time in the playoffs. He was a 4th liner in name only. And frequently was moved up in the lineup.

I'm not against having a good 4th line. I'm against the mistake of putting players like Umberger or Lecavalier on the 4th line if they are healthy and playing well. They have more to offer to a team then that.

Im not a Porsche guy.....give me the Ferrari
- KINGKENZO

My Maserati does 185...

Mike Richards average 15:32 a game in ice time in the playoffs. He was a 4th liner in name only. And frequently was moved up in the lineup.

I'm not against having a good 4th line. I'm against the mistake of putting players like Umberger or Lecavalier on the 4th line if they are healthy and playing well. They have more to offer to a team then that.
- MJL

Did you read my whole post? I would have Umberger, who I don't think is as good a player as Mike Richards, playing 13-15 minutes per night. That's not exactly typical 4th line minutes.

My Maserati does 185...
- Jsaquella

I lost my license, now I don't drive.


couldn't resist

Did you read my whole post? I would have Umberger, who I don't think is as good a player as Mike Richards, playing 13-15 minutes per night. That's not exactly typical 4th line minutes.
- BiggE

I was wondering if it was irony or the need to start an argument that led to his replies.

I've made several posts saying that it'd be a "fourth" line in name only without using the specific wording.

I lost my license, now I don't drive.


couldn't resist

- BiggE

That was the intent

Did you read my whole post? I would have Umberger, who I don't think is as good a player as Mike Richards, playing 13-15 minutes per night. That's not exactly typical 4th line minutes.
- BiggE

edit: and playoff icetime is usually inflated to some degree due to OT